> "So, what DO men want from women, really?"

LOL! That's the million dollar question, of course :-D

The problem is, men - and women - are all different. That's why we can talk in general, but there's no definite answer.

A better question would be "What Mark - or Mary - does want?".

A good general answer is given in this post: "What men really want from marriage"

https://www.drpsychmom.com/2016/06/18/men-really-want-marriage-guest-post/

I think it's valid for the vast majority of men.

> "I mean the obvious...they want sex."

Yes, that is their first and foremost need for 99% of men. But not the only one.

They want to feel loved, appreciated, respected, useful. Admired, even, sometimes. They love when their woman is proud of them.

I think that feminism, with its frequent attitude of debasing and despising men, has damaged modern relationships more than anything else. So many women now are used to put down men, and they expect men to be OK with it. Yeah, sure. Put down a man again and again, and he will slowly stop loving you: simple as that.

From what I hear around, lots of men in long-time relationships don't feel respected by their partner. It cannot go well.

> " I am more intelligent than it seems most men like"

Then maybe you should meet a different kind of men.

This "Men don't like intelligent women" idea is true for SOME men. NOT all of them.

Smart, bright and self-assured men just LOVE intelligent women: they find those enticing and fun and sexy.

The problem many women have, it's being PASSIVE: since many men go to them (as I usually say ;-), they just select among those men - instead of actively go looking for the kind of men they might prefer.

Think of what could happen if you actively went looking for really smart and emotionally mature men...

> "I ask "why?" far to much for most men's taste"

That's another selecting factor, but one that has little to do with gender.

I think most people aren't really much introspective. Quite the contrary, they take the easier route.

Asking lots of "Why?" means - I assume - you're curious, inquisitive, truth-seeking, honest with yourself and willing to face your fears, shortcomings and inner demons. That is corageous and often scary and painful.

Most people are NOT like that; they go in the opposite direction. They aren't intersted in truth, they seek pleasure and comfort. Such is basic human nature. :-)

Therefore, asking lots of "Why" isn't a problem with men, it's with humans.

We could say it's the "way of the philosopher", and not many of those are around. ;-D

I know that well, because in that regard I'm a man of many, many "Why's" as well.

When I go all "philosopher" (or shrink) and say deep stuff and ask ponderous questions, I get much admiration but no woman asks me out because she's aroused by my mind ;-)

(well, maybe it happened two or three times in all)

As Plato said, most people are afraid of the light (knowledge) and prefer to remain in their familiar dark cave.

Hence, if you're that kinf of person, I'm afraid your dating pool becomes quite smaller.

And the "passive" strategy (selecting just among the men who come to you) works even less.

> "So it takes a strong and authentic but patient man to get this submissiveness stuff out of me"

I think this sums it up: you've done your homework and know your shit; you have "evolved".

Thus for a satisfying relationship you need a man who's at least as much evolved as you.

Now, how many men like that do you think are around? And how many are single? :-)

To me, again, this isn't a problem with men per se. It's a problem of being a peculiar woman looking for her kind of peculiar man. Now, it's not the world's fault if such man is hard to find, isn't it? ;-D

> "In general, I think I bring a lot to the table."

That's admirable. Yet, maybe it might backfire (see above).

***

I find myself in a similar conundrum. I know I have lots of qualities (and many faults as well, but at least I'm aware of them and admit them), and I worked hard to develop them. I see myself as a beautiful, soulful and caring person (and I think most people who know me agree). And physically I'm not that bad for my age, too: I'm tall, fit, energetic and graceful :-)

Sometimes I think women should come to me in droves. After all, I have most of the qualities they say they're looking for :-o

(I'm also the best cuddler ever :-D )

And yet it doesn't happen. And I'm baffled. In the end, I assume two possibilities:

1. I'm somehow "too much" (on a dating site a woman wrote me I "wanted too much" from a partner... but eveything I'm looking for I offer as well), and that scares "normal" women away.

2. There's something "wrong" in me I'm not aware of, which pushes women away (I'm working on this with my therapist, but so far without success).

***

So, could any of those two be an explanation in your case...?

Sometime the problem lies in some "dark side" deep inside us, we haven't confronted yet. In your case, it seems to me you've been wronged and hurt by men, and maybe therefore you still have walls and shields that may push men away. :-?

Sometimes a distant past still haunts us...

> "And yet, with all this...it seems to me that the bottom line is that most guys value sex and that's pretty much it."

OK, let's be real: men wants sex first and foremost. Without it, the lemon isn't work the squeeze, as they say. See the link I put at the beginning.

Yet, most men want more than that. So if that doesn' happen in your case, I see two possible reasons:

1. The man is shallow or just interested in sex.

2. The man could want more... but he doesn't want it from you.

These two cases raise more questions:

1. Why do you keep chosing that kind of men? Are you perhaps naive, too needy, desperate, without enough self-esteem, debasing yourself, looking for disappointment...?

2. How much do you select men basing on deep compatibility? Why this guy and not another one? Can you find someone who's eally in tune with you? Do you believe you really deserve such a guy...?

Honestly, this is a whole can of worms. But since I'm not your therapist (yet ;-), I won't go deeper now.

Please notice, though, that I'm not blaming you in the least; I'm just pointing out the possibility that you - unaware - could "co-create" these situations. Your responsibility in it. Unless you see yourself as a "poor victim", of course you contribute to these situations through your choices.

Just keep in mind that most of our love life choices are made by our unconscious. That's why I try to go looking for deeper reasons.

> "It just...would be nice to know I'm valued for more than just my body"

I get it. Yet, why do you keep choosing guys who don't do that?

You sound like the girl complaining of being used just for sex... but who keeps choosing the sexy "bad boys" and ignoring the kind "nice guys". ;-P

Sometimes we really are our worst enemy... :-)

***

For example, I might be a man who appreciates your body AND your mind AND your heart. It seems to me we're quite in tune on much stuff.

Yet you're not showing any interest in me as a person, and you mostly "use" me as a listener or a source of explanations. I'm ok with it - to a certain point - but it's telling.

You could be thinking "Wow, this dude is really smart, and wise, and sensitive, and caring, and even fun sometimes... Not many men like this around... I really would like to know him better". Yet you don't.

Now... ask yourself why.

Maybe even in your real life you ignore such men, or they do not interest you?

Food for thoughts...

> "I'm actually also trying to just understand men"

Good for you.

But you always have to keep in mind the difference between the general and the personal. Everybody is unique.

> "The relationship coaches tell you men want emotional connection, sex is secondary"

That's feminist bullshit - or female-centered thinking. It's crap.

Men find emotional connection THROUGH SEX first. Then comes the rest.

If you want to understand men, avoid any feminist source (their ideology is 99% BS) and be skeptical about female ones: they're often full of biases.

A good female psychologist who understands men is the one I linked above.

And if you REALLY want to go into the rabbit hole, watch the videos from Orion Taraband on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsNKefuFS_E

It's hard stuff, but he tells it like it is (although sometimes I find him to be too cynical). He's sort of an antidote to romantic lies.

> "So... when it comes down to it, if women in general, even the cherished ones, are really mainly a physical release for the guys once they're more committed"

You sound like you have a "victim mentality" (you often do). Like you've been traumatized by men, and now see them through that lens.

If that's true, you can hardly have healthy relationships with men: that lens will always color your vision and distort your interactions.

Look, there ARE men around who are terrific and loving partners in mostly fulfilling relationships. They are out here. So if you can't find one, you have to look inside and ask yourself some difficult questions.

> "I'm thinking that ONE fuck-buddy arrangement close to home might not be a bad thing."

That's way better than nothing :-)

Good sex is good for the body and the mind.

An even better proposition is a (real) "Friend with Benefits"; I mean someone with whom you have good sex AND real friendship AND affection - although maybe you two cannot be full time partners.

Don't let the great be the enemy of the good. ;-)

> "I canNOT believe I'm saying this..."

You're finally coming out of your religious brainwashing... ;-)

> "do men really want all that other stuff or is sex the main thing?"

It's BOTH. With humans is mostly BOTH.

Sex is the main thing AND most want other stuff as well.

A problem is, for men sex is ok with most women, but the other stuff only with the ones the man is compatible with.

Hence, find the one you're compatible with, and you're golden! :-*